read the whole Book II and the allegory of cave in Book VII
text available at http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html
Journals due on September 23
guidance questions:
1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
3. What's the requirement of guardians in the proposed city?
"he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results". I think what this is trying to say is that the just will find happiness through helping others by using his/her own specialized skill and will be rewarded by experiencing joy and happiness as a result of others specialized skills. Give and you shall receive, but not giving in order to receive. I believe this book had much to do with defining the role and events held responsible by god, and ultimately found that god must at all times remain honest, holly and one who does "good". And not used in the name of evil such as wars, deceitful acts, and so on. This is because socrates believes we should have a 100% pure role model for the city and importantly the children. Also, for the guardians to not only fulfill physical requirements and man power but to also have knowledge and wisdom in order to best use their specialized skill and knowing when to use it and on whom.
ReplyDeleteRita Babkin
ReplyDeleteThe true meaning of justice and injustice is still being discussed. Glaucon is trying to make a few valid points about why people are just. He says that people choose to be just because a reward comes from doing so, for example physicians who do good deeds do so because they will be rewarded. Kids are taught to be good because they are promised rewards from the gods and prosperity. Glaucon is basically questioning the real reasons to why people choose to be just and it is for their own good, so they can benefit from it, or they will be praised and accepted in society. The unjust receive rewards as well and some are prosperous even if they maintain these things through unlawful and corrupt ways. The story about the Gyges and the ring was a great example of the relationship between power, justice, temptation and weakness as well. The three kinds of good that Glaucon described are, simple pleasures, knowledge and health and talent and profession, justice belongs in the highest good where one would achieve the pursuit of happiness.
The guardians in the proposed city must have qualities such as spirit, swiftness, strength and philosophy. I found it interesting that a dog was compared to a philosopher because of it’s instincts and qualities and the fact that it has the ability to know who is companion and who is a stranger. The idea of the dog knowing this, the desire to learn it, is related to philosophical thinking. At the end of the conversation, an agreement was reached between the men, I do not quite fully understand the conclusion but I believe it has something to do with being angry with the gods and not allowing them to teach their youth.
In Plato's Republic, Book II, we can still see the discussion of justice. I agree with the division of the three types of goods in which justice belongs. The reason why is because I believe that more than desirable, justice can belong to the results of a person's action at the same time. Therefore, I am not agree, nor disagree with Adeimantos' point of view about poems and religion. He says that the representation of gods and written tales are represented in a wrong way. He might be right because there's alot of people who represent or either write a poem or story that is all based on lies. But at the same time, there are also people who write based on the truth. On the other hand, in Plato's Republic, Book VII, education plays a very important role. This is a very important concept because we see that since a long time ago, education has been important and through this text, Plato tries to show it.
ReplyDeleteSocrates, Thrasymarchus, and Gloukon are still having a discussion on what justice really is? During this discussion Gloukon states that goods can be divided into three class or kind, the first which is their own sake, and independently of their consequences, the second is gymnastic and the care of the sick and the physician art or skills, and the last one is the highest which is things we want for their own sake and for the consequences that we get from them such as knowledge, skills, and health. What Gloukon want Socrates to prove to the other is that justice is not only desirable, but that it also belong to the highest class of good which is the desired for their own sake and consequences.
ReplyDeleteAdeimentos is saying that people teach their children to be just not for the sake of justice but for the sake of being called a good man. So justice in reality is taking a back seat just so the person can gain something from it in society. He says their are so many people that are doing unjust things but because they make public prayers and sacrifices people consider them to be just and good people. The wicked are being portrayed as good because they are using religion to prove they are just when there not. While the just are losing out on all benefits because they don't take advantage of situations. So he wants Socrates not to prove whether justice is better than injustice but he wants him to prove what makes the one to be good and the other to be evil.
ReplyDeleteIn book two there still seems to be a heavy conversation about one being justice and in justice."The universal voice of mankind is always declaring that justice and virtue are honourable, but grievous and toilsome; and that the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy of attainment, and are only censured by law and opinion." To me this quote spoke the most .. I got out of it that even though justice is something that is supposed to be so good it still causes a lot of pain and trouble to people it is something that is hard to attain .. but unjustice is so easy to attain there is no work in being unjust. I dont know i was kinda confused i hope this makes sense.
ReplyDeleteIn the article The Republic (Book II), it really got my attention when Glaucon said that if the people’s action didn’t have consequences that they would go ahead to do whatever the heart desires whether it’s just or unjust. I believe if you ask any person if they could do anything in the world with having any consequences afterwards there is a great chance that they would accept. But yet again it takes us back to not being universal. This would only apply to only certain actions. Let’s say some people would be ok with taking something that is not theirs but wouldn’t be ok with killing or kidnapping.
ReplyDeleteSaleem Javaid
ReplyDeleteJustice was still the topic of discussion throughout book two. According to Glaukon, these three groups of good that he divided justice into was his belief of where justice stands in society. Glaukon's description of where justice falls into these groups was somewhat right on target. In my opinion, not only did it impact the society in to ancient times,but also it applies to modern time. The way that Glaukon described the different ways justice plays a role in our lives made sense. But I did not completely agree that there is more importance in one group rather then the next and the last. I believe that throughout the world that the three groups work together, like a harmony, and as important one group so shall the next one be and the final. To be honest i was completely confused reading this book, so it was difficult trying to explain what i was thinking
Cesar Herrera
ReplyDeleteThe guardians requirements in the proposed city are to be wise and know how to use their special skills. I believe Adeimantos was trying to say that poems and religion represent gods in the wrong way. That what is written isn't actually what the god are and express incorrect agreements or can be interpreted the wrong way. Especially since a lot of the reading can be interpreted in so many different ways. The types of good are your out of your own sake for small gains and pleasures, health care like doctors and the highest is long lasting happiness.
In the REpublic Book 2 Glauco told his opinion on just and unjust and where the topic took president at. Glauco described that a state has influence over an individuals personal meaning of just and unjust But doesnt this raise the question of whether or not the state opinions are limited or univesal? He also talked about " the man and the invisible ring" this subliminal ring told the tale of a man who was just but was in secret desired to be unjust. He said metaphorically that all men wish to be unjust but are to afraid to be punished to do so. I agree with Glauco about this because every person has a desire to something they may get into trouble for. But i became confused about the statement that " "The unjust man enjoys life better than the just", how can a man who lives in fear of his desires live better then a man who lives by his beliefs?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Glaucon justice should belong to the highest place of the hierarchy of good. it should be desired for its own sake and for the benefits it brings to society and the individual. Can justice benefit the city or state? I think that everyone would prefer to live in a just city or state rather than in a unjust city or state. No one in their right mind would desire injustice over justice when they are the victim of injustice. for this reason justice is desirable and belong to the highest place of the hierarchy of good. The guardians of this city, in Palto's view, should be: strong, fast, philosophers, and just. these qualities would protect the city or state from corruption and injustice. The foundation of this city or state should be the truth and not the lies of poes and religion about God. The role model of the city is God. who is "perfectly simple and true both in word and deed; he changes not; he deceive not, nither by sign or word, by dream or waking vision."
ReplyDeleteJust like justice, good is also individual because what one persons determines good another could determine as bad. I think Justice belongs in the first class of good, harmless pleasures and enjoyment. I think Socrates would agree with me because he said its in the class in things we choose to have and suffer consequences for. The requirements for guardians are the people who love knowledge, but the people should be by nature fast,strong and a spirited philosopher.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletefirst good is doer of sself pleasures and enjoymentsex roformers, the second one is knowelege, sight,health seekers not for themselves but the results ex secientist lawyers and the third is gymnastis, the care for the sick, physician. person who make money various differrent ways.justice belong to the third class of justice
ReplyDelete.
i think that Adeimantos had a problem with the gods and poets because they contradict them selves when thet talk about Justice a nd law and he want socrates to prove to him the true justice and how to administer it. he want to know if the unjust is the the true just or the just is thr true justice.
The requirement of guardians is suppose to teach the young ones the laws and how to be just but they tell lies and about the gods so they cant be relable
Adeimantos found many problems with religion and whether of not is can lead one to defining justice. Religion gives on a fixed way of thinking. It sets up a guideline on how one should live life and it gives you a clear understanding of what is right and what is wrong. In other words it simply tell you what is just and injustice. The problem with using religion as a way to define justice is that religions vary all over the world making this definition not universal. Something that may be considered just within one religion may be completely unjust in another. Socrates wants a universal definition not one that cal only apply to people within a certain religion
ReplyDeletethe problem i have with the word justice is that no one really knows whats really just and unjust. after reading this you come to think about how important the word just is. I understand from a religious point of view that just plays a big part in your world, because from my understanding religion talks about being just and not unjust. friendship to me is someone who is gonna be their when things get bad. After reading this i come to find out that a friend is someone who can help you physical with what he or she knows how to do. Being their is ok but if you dont have any talent and you cant help your friend out when he need something means that your not really helping him as you think. Socrates makes me thing a lot after reading his response
ReplyDeletewat i can understand from wat they are saying is that glaoukon kind of good should belong to da highest class.these to ppl have very diffrent points of view on some thing that is just one.
ReplyDeleteadeimantos finds olot of wrongs on weather or not justice is define correctly.this is still very confusing to me but im starting to understand it.wat is ok for socratice is really tha opposite to some one else..
Book 2 and 'The allegory of the cave' are both stories that you can gain knowledge from. Whether it is talking about different goods we possess or to alter the way how we see reality. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of goods: goods welcome for their own sake (joy), goods desirable in themselves and in ther consequences (knowledge) and goods only desirable by their consequences (exercise). Glaukon states that justice belongs in the goods desirable in themselves and in their consequences. The reason for this is probably because since we desire justice for ourselves we must live by it and follow it or face the consequences.Adeimantos talks about justice and injustice how some wicked men are prasied if they are rich or influential and some good men are not praised even though they are just. Some of the requirements of the guardians over the proposed city is to have courage, temperance and must be able to philosophize.
ReplyDeleteKevin Granados
ReplyDeletePHI 100-141
In Republic (Book 2) Glaukon mentions three kinds of good but according to him justice belongs to the highest place of the hierarchy of good. People desire justice because it is beneficial for themselves and for the greater good of society. Adeimantos's problem with poems and religion is that God is portrayed the wrong way. For example religious followers are most likely to live their life in fear of their God and they use religion as a tool to be just. Poets write poems through experience and emotion so others can relate. The problem with poems and religion is that both are usually lies written by unjust people to take advantage over just people. Overall Adeimantos wants Socrates to prove why people do good or evil rather than prove whether justice is better that injustice. According to Plato the requirements of guardians in the proposed city have to be naturally strong-willed, fast, just and a spirited philosopher. Plato believes that guardians who possess these qualities would protect the city/state from injustice and corruption.
In the book 2 Glaucon mentions goods into three kinds of classes which were; the one which we welcome for our pleasure but it should be harmless, the one which is inside us for their good results like knowledge and also the one which do good for us but we disagree with them. Although Socrates places justice in the second class, Glaucon through his argument tries to prove the superiority of injustice over justice and Socrates was unable to argue for the justice. I think, may be the justice falls in the first class which we do everything for ownself and it is harmless. Adeimantus joins the argument by saying if we do justice for the benefit of ourselves without thinking about anybody then what will be the results of it to us through the god. He then doubt on the existence of the god and says that we can not see the god and the gods are expressed only by the poets in their poems and the poets are liars. So we can do injustice and get all the benefits and later by our prayer to god may be we shall not be punished for the injust life. Through his dialogues he just wanted to prove Socrates the effects of justice and injustice on doing good and bad. Then Socrates jumps in with the point on guardians where he says that the future guardians of the state must be educated with good morals which can be done by teaching them stories of gods and the heroes not the stories written by the poets. Because the poem often contains information about god which might be leading the readers in a bad way so they should be taught the stories which might lead them into a moral life.
ReplyDeleteChih Hao Hsu PHI 201
ReplyDeleteTalking about the guardians of the city, the ideas of nature and education were bought up. Is nature enough for the up bring of the guardians or there has to be some kind of education, and to what extend of an education is necessary and allowed. For example, Socrates mention the teachings about gods and how it is the utmost importance that the gods were presented as the good of the world and nothing of the bad. But looking at this idea, i feel like in order for the guardians to have a successful upbringing, some of the truth and facts in the world would be masked from them. It might be true that by teaching nothing of the bad will allow the guardians to a understanding the good from the bad. But is the "good" really the right idea, or it is just made up by people with their own interst in mind.